They were raised in the home of a pioneering set of parents in the education field. And now, they’re a brother-sister duo dedicated to helping moms and dads make imagination a priority in the home. Joy and Nathan Clarkson join Julie Lyles Carr to unpack the role of creativity and imagination, and why it’s as important to a future career as reading, writing and arithmetic.
Interview Links:
- Joy Clarkson – Online | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | Podcast
- Nathan Clarkson – Online | Facebook | Instagram | Podcast
- Get a copy of their new book! The Clubhouse: Open the Door to Limitless Adventure
Transcription:
[00:00:00] Julie Lyles Carr: You’re listening to the AllMomDoes podcast where you’ll find encouragement, information, and inspiration for the life you’re living, the kids you’re raising, the romance you’re loving and the faith you’re growing. I’m your host, Julie Lyles Carr. Let’s jump into this week’s episode.
Today on the AllMomDoes Podcast. It is historic. I have not had a brother sister team that I’ve interviewed at the same time, but today we’ve got Nathan and Joy Clarkson. They’re going to be joining me to talk about something that I know we worry about as moms, we think about is moms need some inspiration as parents.
And that is how to really leverage imagination for our kids. And so Nathan and Joy thanks so much for joining me today.
[00:00:53] Nathan: Well, thanks for having us great to be here.
[00:00:55] Joy: Fun to be on the. Thanks joy. And it’s fun.
[00:00:58] Julie Lyles Carr: We were just discussing, uh, before we began the interview where all of us live in the world. So Nathan you’re in New York city and joy.
You’re in Oxford England right now. I feel like we’re kind of cool. I think we’re kind of rocking several different coasts here. Oh yeah. How do you guys maintain family closeness with this distance going on right now?
[00:01:19] Nathan: I just actually got back from Oxford. I hadn’t seen my family in a year because of the pandemic and the lockdowns, and that’s longer than I’ve ever gone without having seen my family.
So, um, I just decided it was time. And so we, uh, went over to Oxford and finally got to spend some good time, but you know, a lot of it is just making that effort to stay in touch to Syntex, to get on FaceTime. Um, when it is. Years. And there are people who you want to see and stay connected with. I think it’s to something that’ll naturally happen.
So luckily enough, we actually all like each other. And so we actually look forward to getting the texts, the calls, and when we can being in the same place with one another, just because of that natural connection. We have in that, right.
[00:02:00] Julie Lyles Carr: And Joy you’re over in the UK. And you’re closer to all the nuclear family at this time.
How has that been for you? Is that your situation during the pandemic that you were primarily there with them? Or are you kind of getting reacquainted and reunited at the time as well?
[00:02:15] Joy: So most of the pandemic, I was in Scotland with my brother, Joel. So he’s been up there doing a PhD as well. And so I had, I had a sibling with me and then, um, there was a.
Period of time at which I then got stuck in Oxford with my mom while she was here, forcing me back to the states. So, um, mostly it was with Juul. Um, so I had some family experience, but most of the experience was being stuck in a tiny cottage, uh, in St. Andrews with my brother. So it was very fun to visit with Nathan finally after months.
Years, even of not being able to see everybody. Right.
[00:02:49] Julie Lyles Carr: Right. Well, I think it’s going to be interesting for some of my listeners to understand who your parents are. And some of my listeners are gonna be. Okay. Yeah. So Nathan, why don’t you explain your family of origin and particularly your mom, all the work that she’s done, because for a lot of people in the homeschool community and in the learning community, this is going to be really big and some people are going to need an introduction. So tell us about.
[00:03:17] Nathan: Yeah. So, uh, my parents had Clay in Sally Clarkson and they were kind of, um, trendsetters, or I don’t know what the right word is, but, um, way back when we were kids and they were a part of a movement, um, that was kind of changing the way we thought about education and, uh, the way we thought about raising kids and the way we thought about minds and hearts and sort of book called educating the whole hearted child, and that kind of launched them into the scene, uh, where they became, uh, Uh, speakers and writers on education on parenthood, on motherhood, on fatherhood, on how to raise and reach your children as they grow.
And we were the Guinea pigs. Uh, we were the Guinea pigs that, um, our parents, uh, and I say that, and I say that kindly in a great way. And I’m so happy to have been one. Um, but it was something that was different than the mold of what, um, Many people have grown up with, we were educated at home. We were educated holistically and, um, our family was kind of in the center of this world that was re defining and looking at, um, education and reaching hearts and raising kids in a, in an entirely different.
[00:04:27] Julie Lyles Carr: Joy. What do you think were some of your takeaways from being part of this? If you will, social experiment of being homeschooled and doing it from a perspective of not trying to recreate a classroom exactly in your house that had to look like a schoolhouse classroom too, to really have a learning environment that was very different because at the time, and when I started, you know, home educating my oldest kids, What seemed to be much information out there. Now we all know that home education has been around since there’ve been moms and dads and kids, but in terms of really in a modern era, what that really was to look like.
So what are some of your takeaways as you look back on the experience and how do you feel like it prepared you well for moving into your university career and where are some areas where you’re like, huh, might’ve done that a little bit.
[00:05:15] Joy: Hmm, that’s a great question. And it’s funny to phrase it as you know, it was like being a part of this great social experiment, because of course, as a kid, I had nothing else to compare it to.
And so it seemed like it was just what life ought to be. Um, but I think growing up, I do remember being around other people and seeing that even as my parents did home education, they did differently, even than most people who did home education. So, you know, I’m certainly already talked about this, but they didn’t give us grades.
Um, most of what we did, we didn’t work through textbooks. We, we did topics. We did, they kind of pushed us as far as we could go and whatever areas we were able to go for. Um, and, and kind of stayed with us at the level, that of things that were difficult for us. And, um, and so I remember as a kid looking around and going, well, mom, other people are doing the, you know, all these things are doing the things that look more like school and thinking maybe that meant that I was learning less.
But I think that as an adult, what I can see is that the advantage of the way my parents approached education. Was that they really had the end in mind. They had the goal of what they wanted, um, to produce in our lives, which was that they, they wanted to instill us, um, with a sense of character and faith.
They wanted us to, um, be the best, you know, this can sound cheesy, but they wanted us to be the best version of who we were. If that makes sense. They wanted to see themselves. Stewards of bringing our gifts to the fullest capacity and they wanted to spark in us a love of learning and a sense of wonder at, uh, at creation at, at the human mind at, um, of all these subjects that are learning would be out of a posture of enjoyment rather than out of duty.
And I think with those ends in mind, Then they were able to craft a educational experience that was focused on those ends rather than, you know, kind of trying to manage us. I think a lot of the, the goals, a lot of the ways that education is done in schools aren’t necessarily bad. It’s just that it has a lot of it’s formed around trying to manage a whole bunch of kids, uh, from different backgrounds, different homes.
And so when you are just focusing on your four kids and trying to craft an educational experience that specifically for their needs. I think they were just very brave and. And will, and being willing to experience and, and experiment and respond to our needs specifically. And so I think as an educator now, you know, that I teach, um, teach school kids.
I think one of the biggest things that I’ve realized is that I grew up with a sense of you learn because it’s a wonderful to learn and you do your best because, um, because it’s exciting to learn. And sometimes something that’s a little bit surprising to me is that I see how much. Uh, students have internalized a sense of.
You learn because it pleases adults or you learn because you need to get the prize. And those aren’t necessarily bad motivations. You know, we all need affirmation, but I realized that the real gift of my education, that it was that it was really internally motivated, but it, it gave me a sense of learning and imagination and play being good thing, because it was a good thing.
Not just because it gave me a good one.
[00:08:30] Julie Lyles Carr: No, I, and I love that answer because one thing that. And I try to be careful about whenever I’m interviewed about the educational choices we made for our kids, or we’re talking about educational choices on this podcast, you know, I don’t at all feel like that homeschooling is the answer for everybody.
And obviously there are families for whom it does not work. And if mom’s got a career going in a certain direction and dad’s got a career going in a certain direction, my in-laws were some of the best people. Ever, possibly meet. And they were public school principals. And I still to this day, meet people out in about a way from the town where they were, who got to experience them in the classroom and had such a beautiful educational experience.
So I always want to be clear when we talk about education. We’re not saying that this is the only answer, joy, what I love and what you said that anyway. Can bring to their kids. Anyone can bring to their children’s education regardless of the place in which that is happening is sure there is value in working hard to earn a grade.
There is value in looking up to someone who’s mentoring you educationally, whether that’s your public school teacher or your dad homeschooling you in math and wanting to do well. But at the core of it, To make sure our kids know that learning for learning’s sake is such a joy. We always had an ethos that we wanted to raise lifelong learners, but it never stops.
It’s not something that only happens K through 12 or K through 12 in the university. And you’re done. Unfortunately, a lot of the ways in which we have to package education to try to get it to the biggest number of people possible is sometimes we stall out on those abilities to just stay curious, or we interrupt a curiosity cycle because we’re trying to get assignments turned in by a certain date.
So I love that distinction to remind moms and dads, Hey, whatever the format is that you’re using, make sure that there is still that being communicated well. Learning just to learn is so fun. It’s just a great thing to have.
[00:10:34] Joy: Exactly. And even, yeah. And I’ve seen this, you know, as I started teaching too, that all of those things like assignments or whatever, or grades should be for the purpose of, of passing on that joy, you know what I mean?
That, that we do. Papers and assignments and grades, not because that’s the thing you have to do to be educated, but because it’s, it serves a purpose. I don’t know if that makes sense, but seeing, having the end in mind of creating lifelong learners of giving the gift of education, enjoyment and wonder, and then seeing whatever method or form you choose.
To inculcate that as something that serves that purpose, rather than we have this kind of idea in our mind that all these things are necessary to being extra educated when there’s there’s great flexibility. Um, as long as you have that kind of purpose in mind of passing on a joy of learning and the skills to do that, Right.
[00:11:24] Julie Lyles Carr: You know, another thing that I think has become really exciting in recent years, both with this sort of modern advent of homeschooling, as we know it today, but also with the internet, with access to courses that you can be sitting in Nebraska and you can actually take a class at Oxford, those kinds of things that happen also feed into something.
We made a value and I have a sense was a value in your home of origin, which is the ability to know how to be autodidactic. And autodidactic means that you know how to go out and find information and teach yourself. Nathan, how did this play into with some of the learning challenges that you had that you’ve written about and talked about?
How did this place of it, of learning stain. And being encouraged that you were capable of learning and you are capable of learning on your own. How did that inform who you are today? Because a lot of kids come through an educational cycle, whether that’s in the home or in a traditional classroom. And if they’ve struggled, if they’ve had different learning challenges, they walk out going, man.
I just want to be done. I don’t want to have to think about school, their education ever again. So how did all of that inform your experience as someone who has experienced learning challenges?
[00:12:37] Nathan: Yeah, I think I was the perfect candidate to hate school. Um, I think with my ADHD and my out of the box personality and my dyslexia, and a lot of my learning disabilities, I think that if you were going to find a kid who would hate school, who would really resent having to sit and learn, that would have been me.
And luckily enough, I don’t, I don’t hate learning. In fact, I love it. It’s one of my. It’s one of the things that makes my life valuable. Um, and it gets me up every day is there’s new things to learn. There’s new truths to uncover. And this happened as a result of, um, again, my parents teaching in a way that was tailored specifically to me, I think, whatever you were saying earlier.
Yeah. Not just one education system that does it, but ultimately I think what does create a love for learning is the heart behind the teacher. And that can be found in a public school that can be found at a private school or at home. Um, but it really does rest on the shoulders of a teacher to, um, look at every individual student as unique, uh, as unique in that everyone we were created to learn in a very unique, different ways.
Um, you know, I studied a little while ago. How we learn and how we think and different kinds of intelligences. And, um, there’s all sorts of, um, studies that have been done about how there are multiple different kinds of intelligences, but often the modern world and the modern and the modern school system very often only teaches about three and only shares information in three different ways.
And I think that can be really difficult for kids who don’t learn those two different ways. And I certainly did. And so as I look back on my educational journey, I’m so glad that I had a mom and a dad who said, okay, this kid is different. He learns different. He relates to life differently. He sees life differently, but that doesn’t make him dumb.
That doesn’t make him stupid just because he can’t sit still for long enough or he can’t, um, test as well as other, he just learns differently. Breast is his knowledge in a different way. So I had a, I had a family who recognized the differences I was built with. And instead of trying to force me into a box, I was never meant to fit inside.
Or I was given an entirely tailored, unique, specific education that was tailored and designed for me. And ultimately what that did is it created. Uh, inside me a love of learning because I was, um, learning was related to me in a way that I was meant to receive it. And, you know, specifically practically what that looks like for me as a kid, it is, I had a really hard time.
I still do, by the way, I’m in my thirties. And I still have a really difficult full-time sitting down and reading a book for much longer than that. 15 minutes I do it because it’s important. And I know it’s good for me. And I do whatever. Yeah. But 15 minutes is about where I go. I cannot shut my mind off.
My mind will is just refusing to focus on these words. And that was even stronger. When I was a kid. It was so difficult for me to sit down and read like my brothers and sisters. And that there’s an opportunity there for me to feel dumb. There’s an opportunity there for my mom to say, well, you just have to do it.
And if you don’t, uh, you’re not living up to the expectations of X, Y, and Z. And there’s an opportunity there for comparison in what, and thank goodness that didn’t happen instead. I figured out a way that she could find all the wonderful, the wonders of reading and story and information found in books.
And how can I help this kid me, um, digest those in a way that he was meant to. And so what I got into an early age is books on tape. My mom said, you know, he might have a hard time, um, reading, but what I can do is I can put a book on tape and he can draw while he listens. Uh, or I can read out loud. To him, or we can go and do things that are more visceral and more, um, to do with his hand and visually.
So we would watch movies and documentaries about historical events rather than just reading them on the page. Um, she would take us to battlefields and homes of historical figures, so I could live in that world. And so I had. I had all the education, um, uh, that anyone else might have, um, from, uh, from reading from books.
But what, uh, my mom saw that was valuable for me was experiencing that education in different ways. I’m so glad she did. And it’s funny even now, um, Uh, w I literally, right before this, this, uh, podcast, uh, I make it a practice every day, because I wanted to continue to learn is I have a list of lectures that I’m listening to and thinkers and speakers.
And I have a listen to this going down the list because I want to engage with these patients. These deep subjects, these subjects that, uh, speak to the mind and the heart, but I’m not always as good at sitting down, like I said, and reading for hours at a time. So what I’ve learned to do is I turn on either YouTube or podcasts or whatever it might be or, or a masterclass.
And I listen because that’s the way that God created me to learn. And I still do that even in my thirties. Um, and obviously I think reading and all these in way to really important, that really wonderful, but I think what was really beneficial. To me was that I had an educator, I E my parents who, uh, specifically designed the education experience for a unique child.
And so that was really valuable to me. And, um, and it has, has given me, as Joyce said, a love for learning my entire life and that I still get up and love to learn. And thank goodness that I had a positive correlation with learning, um, because my parents, uh, tailored that to me and my sensibility.
[00:17:52] Julie Lyles Carr: Right.
You know, I think the more that we are beginning to understand about how the brain learns about neurology, one of the things that we can establish is that a brain that is panicked that it’s failing or a brain that is scared, doesn’t learn well. So. If you’re in a situation where you’re terrified, you’re going to bomb the spelling test.
And yet you are struggling to get letters in a certain row. And of course the kid sitting next to you is just going to ACE it because that’s just the way it seems to work. Right. But to really understand that God didn’t form our brains, whatever our learning style, our brains don’t learn well in situations where we feel panicked when we feel overwhelmed, any of those kinds of things.
And so I love for you, Nathan, that an environment was created in way. You could acts, you could express your gifts, you can explore your gifts, but also an environment was created where that performance, anxiety to try to have to do it. Like most everybody else was removed. That’s a really powerful thing.
Now I know that both of you have been working on a project together, which first of all, I want to hear. What it’s like to work with your sibling as an adult on a project where you’ve got a deadline where you have all kinds of opinions that probably go into this project. And I’m assuming that you guys may have worked on a lot of this project apart with joy over in the UK and Nathan here in the U S so talk to me about what it’s like to work alongside your adult siblings on something, that’s a passion project for both of you.
[00:19:21] Nathan: Well, I’ll go first, real quick. Oh, sorry. Joy. I just want to jump in and say, uh, to be honest, it was, it’s pretty easy. And there’s a reason for that is as, and it’s actually reflected in the book. It has to do with what the book is about. Um, the process of creating this book was something that we have practiced and engaged in our entire lives.
In sharing our creative ideas imagining together and having fun together. And that’s something that’s very present in the book. It’s literally about, it’s a children’s book about a brother and sister imagining having fun, uh, imagine this clubhouse to be all these different things, playing pretend engaging with each other.
And so as grownups, it was something we’d practice. Our entire entire childhood was let’s imagine together let’s have fun together. So. To be honest, it’s been just a really easy and fun process working with someone who I’ve spent my entire life playing, having fun and imagining with. And so of course there’s logistic, oh, she’s, you know, an Oxford or a St Andrew’s and that say that’s a five-hour difference.
Uh, but the biggest problems were just logistic. But as far as the actual interpersonal relationships, they was just fun. And it actually kind of hearkened back to when we were kids. I’m imagining thinking, being creative. Together. So something that I’ve really absolutely enjoyed, maybe joy hated it. So I guess we’ll see.
Yeah. I was going to say,
[00:20:38] Julie Lyles Carr: I’m curious to hear Joy’s response too.
[00:20:42] Joy: It’s going to say the exact same thing, which is that, to be honest, it’s been a pleasure and it’s been easy and intuitive and natural. I also think that Nathan and I are well suited to working together because we’re both extroverted. Fast people.
And so we have a fun time, um, coming up with too many ideas too quickly and finding ways to excavate them. No, it’s been, it’s been so much fun. I think it’s been, so the book of course, which we can talk more about in a minute is, as Nathan said, the premise of it, it’s a picture. Yeah. And the premise is I’m a sister and a brother playing in a clubhouse and thinking about all the different things the clubhouse can become, uh, and kind of reflecting on that role of imagination and that we can make anything through, through imagination.
And so. Coming up, Nate, the, the kind of seed of it was actually a poem that my dad found that Nathan had written when he was like nine years old. And so we, we read that together and then came up with more ideas and, and expanded it and kind of, um, made it more full and. Appropriate for a children’s book, but that was just so fun.
And like Nathan said, it was, it was hearkening back to our homeschool days of building forts and reading books and writing elaborate plays and stories, but it was just the, the great fun of getting to do that. Right. So that was honestly so much fun and such a, it was kind of a special thing to be able to celebrate that shared experience we had, even as our adult lives are kind of in different places.
[00:22:09] Julie Lyles Carr: Right. I love that idea of being able to revisit some of the imaginative play and ideas and the feelings you had as kids, because. You know, as siblings when we grow up, I mean, we still may have a great time together. We may just, you know, have game nights that are really exciting or go on, go on adventures together of the traveling sort.
But to really tap back into that imaginative world, not many of us as adults really get to take that pause and do it with the person who was with us in those ages and states. Such a unique thing. The book is called the clubhouse, opened the door to limitless adventure, and really focuses on this idea of imagination.
You know, Nathan, I was posing this question to you because I’m, I’m really curious to hear what you think. Is there a difference between imagination and creativity? Because a lot of times as moms and dads, we want our kids to be creative, or we may say, go do something using your imagination. What do we really mean by some of those terms?
How do you look at that parlance? And do you distinguish, or are they different things to you?
[00:23:12] Nathan: Interesting question. And it’s not something that I’ve thought a lot about in the, in the differences, in definition between creativity and imagination. But, uh, on first blush, I would say that I think they go hand in hand.
I think creation of creativity might just be the act that is, um, born out of imagination. I think imagination has something to do with the mind and creativity has something to do with the action that Springs out of the mind. Um, so I think they are in tandem and I think they, um, they, they need each other, I don’t think you can be creative without imagination, and I don’t think you can, um, Uh, imagination will be stagnant without creativity.
So I think, um, both are aspects that are really positive and beautiful, especially in childhood because when you teach your kids to imagine great things and to envision the world in different way to envision themselves in different way, they then in the creative act go and make those things a reality.
So I think imagination and creativity. Perhaps there are minute differences, but I think they both need each other in both, uh, kind of different parts of the very same thing, which is ultimately, um, seen an envisioning and acting out that vision for the world in your head. And I think that when you’re young, um, Great quote, by GK Chesterton hockey, and about how, when you’re young, you imagine things and then you act them out.
Maybe you have a, you know, you have a fight news fight with sticks, or you build a castle and it’s really a clubhouse. And so you’re imagining, but you’re also creating it in your world. You’re putting it into the physical world that we live in. And I think that. Practice can actually translate to when you’re an adult and learning how to imagine yourself, learning how to imagine the world around you, your relationships, who you want to be, and then acting out in the world around you.
And so I think, um, teaching creativity and teaching imagination as kids is not something you just, oh, it’s something you do for the time being, and you’ll get over it. But I think it’s actually practicing, um, to make you a more healthy. Full and whole adult, because when we were adults, if we don’t have the ability to imagine the world around us, or even ourselves as better in than actually put that into action through the act of creativity, I think we’re missing out on a big part of what it means to be human and who recreated.
[00:25:21] Julie Lyles Carr: Right. You know, sometimes I think we seem to relegate imagination and creativity play as the luxury of childhood. You know that as adults, we just don’t have that luxury anymore. But joy, it seems to me that I, this resonates for me and I believe it. I’d be curious with the work that you’ve been doing on this project.
What are the benefits playing forward in adulthood? Is it important that we teach our kids how to be creative and imaginative? Not to just fill out a season of childhood with something that is glowing and sparkly when you’re a kid, but the tacit investment you’re making into who the adult will be and the investment that makes forward.
How does that intersect?
[00:26:05] Joy: Well, I think that’s such a good question and I’m just finishing up my PhD. I just sent it off to the proofreader right now, and I’ve been researching kind of the role of art and imagination and the development of the spiritual and moral life. And I think that the imagination has such a larger role than we sometimes give it credit for.
You know, we think of it. Like in the context of the book as something we do to play to pass time, but imagination is also involved in all kinds of activities like empathy, you know, when we are able to enter into somebody else’s experience, that’s because we have a good imagination because we can imagine what it’s like to be them.
Um, problem solving is a version of. Seeing the world, the way it is and imagining the way it should be and working your way up to getting it to that place. And so I think there’s so many ways in which people who don’t have imagination, um, are kind of impoverished in their spiritual life, in their, and their capacity to imagine what their lives might become.
And their ability to enter into the experience of other people. So I think that building those muscles of imagination is really important, not just as kind of a frivolous, lovely thing that we can do when we’re kids, but in becoming full hearted and strong people of strong character. I think it’s so important in that way.
And I think even, you know, uh, when it connects to faith, I, one of the things I love about the medieval writers is they just spent a lot of time talking about. How much we need imagination when we read. Scripture or when we try to think of like, what’s the right thing to do in the world, because we have to be able to think of what’s possible and to picture something beyond our immediate experiences to become anything more than we currently are,
[00:27:48] Julie Lyles Carr: right. That whole place of being able to troubleshoot. I mean, troubleshooting is creativity. It is imagination with a very practical outcome and those skills are learned and have to be learned early on. Joy. You talk a lot about. In looking at this project of the clubhouse, opened the door to limitless adventure about the idea that imagination helps also breed deep thinking.
How do you define deep thinking and why is deep thinking important?
[00:28:16] Joy: Hmm. That’s a great question. And something that Nathan will definitely have to chip in on too. Um, I think that deep thinking is I was thinking about this recently. I was deeply thinking about it recently. There’s a kind of thinking where, and this goes back to educational philosophies, right?
Where we grasp what’s going on. We know the facts, uh, we, we can see and draw certain conclusions. And a lot of times in education, that’s what we kind of go for. We want to memorize the dates, that important things happen in history. We want to write down definitions, but deep thinking, I think of like a tapestry.
It’s the thing that brings those strings together. That helps us have a sense of. Why things are interwoven, what connects with what, what supports different things. And it’s the kind of. You know, it’s kind of perhaps the difference between knowledge and wisdom, you know, that it’s not just knowing facts, but being able to see how they integrate with the world and knowing how one should act in light of them.
And I think that, um, again, it’s kind of that muscle of imagination. Imagination is the activity of. Making connections, uh, coming up with things that aren’t present to us, um, kind of playing things out in our minds. And so I think that that capacity to do that is a part of what nurtures the ability to think deeply.
And if by thinking deeply, we mean being able to not only kind of acquire facts, have knowledge, but then see the connections between them. I think imagination is kind of that activity that helps us integrate. The knowledge into a sense of meaning and connection in that sense, right. Being able to scaffold
[00:29:58] Nathan: I’ll jump off on that, if that’s all right.
I love what joy said. I’ve been thinking a lot about it as well. It’s funny. We’ve come to the same conclusion. We must of have conversations about this, about how deep thinking and thinking is really, I think the terms were. Looking for here is knowledge and wisdom and, and something that I’ve kind of formulated and been formulated in my head is I’ve been thinking about thinking, uh, for a little while is I think that knowledge is knowing things and that wisdom is new.
To think about the things, you know, and so I think that’s, it’s easy, you know, a computer can know things, but it doesn’t know what to think about the things that knows. And I think that’s something that’s uniquely human and uniquely God-given. And I think when we do what we act in the image of God, then we think about the things we know and what it means for the world, what it means for us.
I think that is thinking deeply. And I think ultimately that is wisdom. I host a podcast called the overthinkers and it was a little bit in reaction to. Um, we saw all these memes kind of denigrating overthinking, and of course, you know, overthinking can bring about anxiety or, or, or whatever it might be.
But I think that unfortunately the world right now, um, doesn’t engage in overthinking quite enough. In fact, I think, and rather than thinking through things, rather than thinking deeply, rather than being bored. Thoughts and ruminating and discovering. What we typically do is open our phones or turn on a TV or let the TV show or the movie do the thinking for us.
We let Facebook do the thinking for us or whatever it might be rather than actually letting, allowing our minds to wander through these questions and wander through, um, the great mysteries of life. So, unfortunately, I think there’s not a problem with overthinking. I think there is a problem with under thinking currently right now, and it’s not about intelligence.
It’s about the willingness to actually engage with big ideas and big questions. And I’d say much of the world right now. Isn’t willing to do that. Um, because there’s fear or pain or. Worked out that muscle, um, because of how we’ve been raised or where we are or whatever our experience is. But I think that overthinking actually leads us to wisdom, which again, is knowing what to think about the things we know.
[00:32:04] Julie Lyles Carr: I love that distinction. That’s really amazing now for both of you. I think something that’s interesting to me is when I encounter parents who are wanting to help their kids be thinkers, they’re wanting their kids to know how to troubleshoot. They’re wanting their kids to be able to think creatively and to have big imaginations.
The immediate thing they start with is we’re going to shut down screens. They’re going to be no screens. I was somewhat in that camp for a while. And then I ended up with two kids who both really are gifted from an imagination standpoint, a troubleshooting standpoint, a critical thinking standpoint with coding, with being on screens, with technology, with cameras, with editing, all of that kind of stuff.
Where do the two of you see the line between where screen time and all of that can. Begin leeching, our ability to think, and to be present and to be imaginative. And where is it a place that moms and dads might want to reconsider and go? No, this actually can be an element of the clubhouse where you can go in and anything is possible.
How do the two of you look at that?
[00:33:13] Nathan: That’s a great question, Nathan, you first. Yeah, I’ll jump in on this. Interesting. I’ve been working on a project right now. That’ll hopefully come out in the next year, so next or next year. Um, but it’s called the gospel according to video games. And it’s essentially about just what you said and one of the big arguments.
Uh, for video games and I’m making the book cause that they actually are art and their story and there’s music and acting and narrative, and they’re actually beautiful and it takes place in a screen. And I know that, um, one of our first reactions when thinking about imagination and thinking deeply is to shut off all the screens.
And I think that’s for good reason too. I don’t think that that inclination comes out of nowhere. I do think that we live in a screen saturated society, um, that that really does steal a lot of our time and our attention. Um, Uh, when you look at the studies and that there’s a lot of benefit to being bored.
There’s a lot of benefits for kids going outside for doing things. But I do think that ultimately it comes down to balance. I think, um, uh, that unfortunately, uh, most of the answers are in the uncomfortable middle, um, that there are great and wonderful things you can do on screens. I’m a huge, I’m a huge gamer and I make movies for a living.
Obviously I believe that screen can bring about really important and beautiful things. But what I’ll say is, um, I think ultimately, uh, How do I put this? I think, how do I say this? I went back and looked at a lot of the gamers, uh, the game designers, the coders. And if you look at their young lives and them talking about their young lives, a lot of them say that the ideas that were formulated for the game creations that they made for the world, the made for the beautiful stories that they wrote came out of a childhood where they were, um, imagining building and dreaming outside the context of screens.
So it’s an interesting relationship. Between these worlds, because I think, again, it comes back to balance. Uh, there are wonderful things that can take place in, in, um, uh, both onscreen and offscreen, but I think that one might need to proceed the other. And I think that ultimately before we, um, just jump to throwing a screen in front of our kids, we should let them have the, the, the time to imagine, to build their own imagination, to.
Uh, to build upon the natural thoughts and wonder, uh, that God has placed in them before. Um, we throw them in front of a screen that kind of does the hard, the heavy lifting of imagination and thinking for them. And so I think that screens can bring about, be it in the form of video game or movie or TV show or whatever it is.
Bring up. Bring about real beauty, but I think that before it does, we ought to, we ought to spend time inside of our own mind inside of the real world. Uh, so we can better understand what we’re viewing when we are in front of a screen. And I think, especially for kids now, uh, even though screens have some really amazing possibilities on them, I think more often than not screens are used to pacify, uh, To, um, distract, you know, I, the, the countless times I’ve been in a restaurant and when a kid is throwing a fit, instead of talking to the kid or having him join the conversation or having him do something creative, like, um, like draw or think, or write something, they just throw an iPad with him, uh, in front of him instead of, um, you know, where he, where he can play a mindless video game instead of actually engaging his mental capacity.
And, uh, so unfortunately, while screens do have. A promise and possibility anything great can be used in a negative way as well. And so, unfortunately right now, I see very often, and especially in the education space for young young kids, um, screens being used as a way of distraction and, uh, and, and to, and to pacify rather than to educate and to elevate the natural inclination for imagination and beauty that, uh, That we can have.
[00:37:01] Joy: I think I agree so much with what you’re saying, and I think it all goes back to that question of rather than looking at a specific thing we’re doing like screens and saying all screens. Yes. All screens. No, I think it really, you really have to use that mode of discernment about saying, what is the, what is the goal I’m going for for my kids?
You know, we were talking about that to begin with, if the goal is. Enhancing delight of learning, helping them become the best version of who they can be. Then, then you evaluate the use of screens. And then also the amount of the use of screens, a court and the age of the kid is, um, according to, is this going to nurture the kind of life, the kind of spiritual, emotional, mental life.
If it’s going to be a tool and helping a child grow into a gifted adult. By all means use screens, but I think that having that idea of what is it that I’m trying to achieve and then using screens or not using screens saying yes or no, according to what your ideal is, the kind of thing that you’re going for, I think kind of gives you a model discernment where you have to use your own imagination to see how that might play out.
And, um, but I think I would also agree with Nathan. Even the greatest creativity you see on screens, the way we know it’s creative is because it’s connected to the real world, right? Like when we, when we really enjoy, um, I probably shouldn’t cite specific video games. Well, when we really enjoy a specific video game, it’s because lifelike, uh, because we know what real life is like.
And so I think that that would be, those would be my two, my two things to say, which is, I think screens can, if as long as they are serving. To whatever goal it is that you’re trying educationally spiritually creatively to help your children live into, then they can be great, but you don’t want to become a servant of screens, which I think on the whole society is, is kind of, um, bending towards that.
I walked past somebody, I almost fell off the sidewalk and then they almost felt sad. I thought, you know, that’s not healthy. Yeah.
[00:39:09] Julie Lyles Carr: I’ve had that experience. I’ve had that experience. It makes me think what you’re saying. It reminds me of a story that Steven Spielberg tells, which is his mom would pull him out of school.
We think of Steven Spielberg, like phenomenal storytellers, so creative, all of the things she would pull him out of school and she would allow him to go. Shoot movies out in the desert. But what I think about, I oftentimes I’ve thought of it from the perspective of, oh, what a smart mom to put a camera in that kid’s hands.
But part of what was going on, I think was the adventure of mom, pulling them out of school and taking them to. And letting him kind of run around and create. And so I do think it’s that beautiful combination that both you Nathan and Joy have talked about. Well, I’m so excited for you. The project, the new book that’s come out, that’s coming out.
The Clubhouse: Open the Door to Limitless Adventure, Nathan, and Joy where can listeners find you we’ll include in the show notes, links to your podcast and places to go find the book. Where do you like to hang out on social media? So my listeners can go and find out more.
[00:40:15] Joy: Well, uh, I’ll go first. I, I tweet too much.
Um, I think it’s a perfect platform for youngest children who want to be heard. Um, so I tweet literary jokes and, um, so I’m on Twitter and join us. And then I also have Instagram join us the brave and, um, uh, Facebook as well. And then I have a blog@joyclarkson.com and I have a podcast as well, speaking with joy.
Yeah. Alrighty. All right. So you can find Nathan at Nathan J Clarkson on Instagram and. Uh, he also does Nathan clarkson.me. And then, uh, he also has the overthinkers, which is the, um, Facebook group.
[00:40:52] Julie Lyles Carr: All righty. Well, we’ll get all that in the show notes for listeners so they can connect and Nathan and joy.
Thanks so much. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. And I know it’s going to be of so much help to parents out there who are trying to navigate all the things when it comes to helping their kids learn and think and be creative. I’m so excited for your new project. And I thank you so much for your time.
[00:41:12] Joy: Thank you. Really enjoyed this conversation.
[00:41:20] Julie Lyles Carr: check out the show notes for all the links, info and other goodness from this week’s episode with a big thank you to our content coordinator, Rebecca, I’ve got to request, please go like, and leave a review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really does make a difference in helping other people find this.
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