We welcome Jessica Smartt to episode #135 of the allmomdoes Podcast to dig into the concept of how much time our kids need to play, do activities, school, etc. How do we know when we should give them more freedom? How do we know when they are ready for certain technology? Jessica is a great guide for helping us determine these things in our own households.
Listen to “allmomdoes Podcast #135: Jessica Smartt – Let Them Be Kids” on Spreaker.
On this episode:
- Jessica Smartt – Follow her Online, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter
- Check out Jessica’s book: Let Them Be Kids: Adventure, Boredom, Innocence, and Other Gifts Children Need
- Special thanks to our sponsor Adventure Bible!
Transcription:
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:00:00] Today on the allmomdoes Podcast how do we know how much our kids should be able to do and how much free range we should give them and what the balance is supposed to be between extracurricular and scholastic and play time and all the things? There are so many options and we have somebody who’s going to be such a great guide for us in determining those things today. I welcome Jessica Smart. Jessica, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
Jessica Smartt: [00:00:34] Thanks for having me.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:00:36] So give us a little bit, yeah. Ground on you, where you live, the kids, what you do, professionally, all the stuff. Well, um, I have three kids two boys and, a girl, 11, nine, five, and live in North Carolina with my husband.
Jessica Smartt: [00:00:51] So I started a blog shortly after my oldest was born. And I guess you could say that’s my professional life on the side. I’ve written two books, Memory Making Mom and Let Them Be Kids. And I homeschool my kids. So. Between all of those things and making dinner, that’s about all there is to me. Oh, that’s all there is.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:01:12] Yeah. Three kids and homeschooling and I’m trying to keep track of all this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So what interested you obviously having kiddos? I mean, that’s a natural introduction into wanting to be able to help other moms and resolve some of the challenges they’re having. But when did you know that was your heartbeat that you really wanted to communicate to women about their parenting and their concerns on parenting and ways to be intentional and parent.
Jessica Smartt: [00:01:36] Hm. I feel like it’s just so natural. I was a teacher before having kids. So I feel like my personality is just a teacher mode. And so whatever I am passionate about, I like to bring others in and tell them what I’m learning. And then parenting was pretty hard for me. Motherhood. That was a rough transition.
I think it is a lot of times, but I struggled, honestly. I was probably just really selfish and you suddenly so much is asked of you and that’s kind of the story of parenting, but out of my struggle, I just wanted to kind of encourage other parents who were maybe in the same boat, um, other moms. And so. It wasn’t ever like a big determination. It was just slowly. I think it was therapeutic for me to kind of write what I was learning and what God had been teaching me. And I always try to say it and I hope this is true of my books in a way that’s really self-deprecating kind of funny and, you know, really humble because I, I don’t want to say that, Oh, here I’m the expert on everything, but more of like, here’s what I’ve learned.
Here’s some thoughts that I have does this resonate with you? I do feel strongly about a lot of the things I talk about. I do feel like it’s true, but just like how you would interact with your friends. I think, you know, Just a better way to go about it, to say, let’s just discuss, you may see things differently than I do, but let’s talk about some of this and there’s just so many things to talk about now, raising kids.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:03:08] Right. Right. Jessica, how do you balance within that mom conversation? Because I’m so with you, I love the idea of promoting within our communities. Let’s talk, we don’t have to have coalition around a particular idea. Let’s just find out what each other are doing. And yet. There does seem to be something of a pervasive culture of mom shaming.
So is someone who’s leading out in that community about wanting to have these conversations and hearing women’s hearts on the thing they’re challenged with, the things they’re excited about, the things that they’re making some progress and some things that they’re failing at when it comes to their mothering and how they perceive it.
How are you trying to navigate conversation that allows it to continue to be a conversation and not finger pointing and shaming? Well, I think it’s just best under the context of relationship. And I think about my, I have two girls that I meet with, two friends of mine in what we call a prayer triad. And so we meet every other week and kind of just share what’s working well, what we would like help with, and these girls have been so gracious to me.
I know that it’s a safe place because they’re not putting on shows about who they are and they’re not gonna finger point at me, but also, and I think this is key, they are going to call me out sometimes in a way that’s loving and kind. And so I think step one is we may feel guilt. We may feel shame. Like that’s just, I have some people who have really impacted my own walk, whether they’re real life people or authors.
Yeah. And there are times that they make me feel uncomfortable, but you know what. It’s it’s that good? Holy Spirit. Like, let’s change this. You want to change this? I’m here with you. So you kind of already think that you need to change in this area. How can we do that? And you may fall down and pick back up and you may not know all of these, he answers, but I’m your friend and I’m here with you for the long run.
So I think, you know, I don’t know that that was terribly clear, but part one is just realizing you may inflict guilt on someone and you may feel guilt and that’s just interacting with humans, you know, but to be very kind and like I’m in it with you for the long haul. And I think that’s my mentality with my own friends in real life.
I hope they feel that way. And also with my readers of like, we, we are I’m, I’m here to, to help you and as much as I can to be in your life and be a friend, but maybe there’s things that you want to change in your lif. And so let’s talk about that.
I love that Jessica, because I think sometimes we’ve got a really weird culture going on, right?
Where we’re preaching at people all the time on our social media, but there’s not relationship. And of course there have been some great thought leaders who have been unpacking that. But I do think that there has to come a place where those whom we trust, those who provide a safe place are also the people we give permission to, to let us see the things that maybe we aren’t exactly, you know, it’s kind of in our blind spot, we can’t really tell what’s happening. Are we not, we’re not connecting the dots on something that maybe they can help us see. And it’s one of those places that I don’t know. Does it feel like to use sometimes somebody who’s speaking into your life, they, you haven’t given them permission to be there and they’re coming in and yeah, that does make you defensive.
But when it’s someone that you’ve invited into that conversation and you’ve been in that place where you’re opened up. There can be such growth from that. Do you find that?
Jessica Smartt: [00:06:36] Yes. I agree. And you’re right. It’s hard online. I don’t think that’s ever how we were meant to be discipled or like, um, build those really intense relationships.
But I think we can learn things from other people. So it is, it’s just a balance.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:06:52] Right now, when it comes to the raising of kids, I tell you a conversation. I hear coming up a lot, and that is a surrounding this whole notion of how and where and when, and the scheduling, what are kids’ lives supposed to look like anymore.
You know, we have so many iterations and so many generations of what children’s lives have been like. And there have been seasons in history where children’s lives have been incredibly difficult. Children who were in war torn countries or who were children during the great depression. And there have been seasons in which children’s childhoods seem to be in our perspective, safer than the environments we live in now.
So. Catch us up to 2020, like where are we today? And what is the culture around what kids’ lives could possibly look like?
Jessica Smartt: [00:07:42] Well, there’s certainly a lot of opportunity. There’s never been more opportunity to be a child, you know, you immediately, I homeschool. And so anything we want to learn about it’s at our fingertips.
And so that’s a tremendous benefit, but with all of that knowledge, it’s a weighty thing and it’s a big thing and it’s a big world. And so, you know, I know that your followers more than I do as their kids approach the teenage years. The demon that that can be when they’re kind of exposed to Oh, the internet and being able to meet anyone anywhere and all that nonsense.
And so, um, I don’t want to be anti-tech I’m I mean, I am where I am because of technology. So, um, but I think we’re absolutely ignorant if we just wide open the door to all of that for our children, without being extremely cautious. And that’s one of those statements that may make people feel like, Hmm, well, I don’t know if I agree about that and I would just turn it back and say, okay.
Is that something that resonates with you? Do you kind of have a hunch that it’s too much too fast? Um, and if it is the first thing I would say is just that you absolutely can make a change and that you are the grownup in the home and it’s not easy. And now to back the bus up and say, guys, I did allow but I’ve. I have new knowledge now I think we need to reevaluate.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:09:05] I think part of what we are trying to navigate too, is I know in places that we feel insecure as parents in places where our kids are moving into stages and phases that maybe we haven’t experienced before with them, we love people who will come out and say, well, this is the age at which your kids should be able to be on this, or this is the amount of time your kids should have if they’re the age of that.
But I sense what you’re saying is you’ve got to really take a look at your own household and the children in your household and where you live. I mean, for example, if you’re raising a child in New York City, the odds that that kid is going to need a phone earlier than a kid living out in, you know, a smaller town in Kansas are probably pretty high.
You know, those are the conversations you’re going to need to have with a child who lives maybe in the city versus a kid who lives in a situation in which a more of a suburban experience. Those could be different conversations. Is that right?
Jessica Smartt: [00:09:57] Agree. Yes. But I do think that there continues to be pervading research about certain kinds of technologies.
You know, I’ve thought about that scenario you’re describing, and I’ll probably get to the stage where we’ll need to have some sort of a communication device. My hunch is right now, it’s going to be pretty stripped down because a phone doesn’t immediately equate to instagram for example. So, um, I think you just have to be very cautious and, you know, there continues to be a ton of research on the impact of technology, not just on kids, but, um, adults.
And I don’t know about you, but I sometimes don’t like what my phone has made me into. And I often wish that I had more self control. And so I think if I, as a 38 year old grownup who had, you know, a great childhood, not on screens too much. You know, my brain was not wired through technology. If I, myself am struggling, how would I ever expect someone whose brain is not fully formed to be able to handle all of this?
And so, um, And I don’t even have it figured out myself. I would just was reading the book, how to break up with your phone, reading that book to break up with my phone. So, but I just think we ask so much of our children. We, we expect them to handle things that we even can’t handle. You know, I mean, grown men have tons of parameters on their devices because of the, the immediate, you know, easy access to all sorts of junk. So, you know, um, you, it’s just, it stinks, but guess what? We live in an age with Chick-fil-A and Target. So the downside is we also have to navigate all of this other stuff.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:11:40] Right? The good stuff is there. And also the things that are going to take a lot more intentionality.
I do love the idea that, you know, when you start your child off with a phone and you have very good reasons for needing to give that child a phone earlier than maybe what some of the research has, or maybe what your advisor or your friend says. But if that reason exists, you’re so right, Jessica, it’s not that we have to hand them the phone that can do everything.
There are still simple flip phones that get the job done that keep you in communication with your child, right without immersing them immediately into an environment that has access to all of the things that Jessica, I feel like within our technological age. And I can definitely see it with my own children.
I have eight kids and there’s a 16 year, 16 and a half year span between my oldest two, my two youngest two are twins. And one of the things that we have wrestled is how to keep playtime and those interactions of imaginary play and all of that off of screens. And I will tell you, Jessica, I don’t know that we’ve done the greatest job with the younger kids, because the technology has just gotten better and better.
The, you know, the access to movies has gotten so much faster. I mean, all of the places that it’s a temptation to allow technology to replace true imaginary playtime. It’s so much more strong now than it was when my older kids were younger. How do we protect the beauty of play? You know, we see researchers talk about how important play time is and using the imagination and creativity.
How do we protect that in such a tech saturated world? I think there’s just, unfortunately the answer is to delay as much of the introduction of these things as you possibly can. That’s just going to be the facts, because as soon as your kids know that, you know, Madden exists upstairs, they’re going to ask you 10,000 times to go play.
And I don’t know. I know very few people who’ve said, man, I wish I would have introduced fill in the blank sooner. I wish I would have given them an Instagram account sooner or allowed, you know, Fortnite sooner. You’re not hearing those stories, you know, so I’m not bashing those things, but I’m talking to the parent, who’s on the fence about something.
This is your sign. Wait, what? Put it off as long as you can. And I do want to say, like, it’s not again, that technology is bad. Okay. But if you think back as adults, to most wonderful experiences, you’ve had, like, if you were to picture right now, one of the most amazing memories you’ve had. Was it on a phone?
Like how close were you connected to your technology? My guess is it’s probably more to do with people in nature and really good food and travel. Right. So what I’m getting at is I’m not saying a way, just take away technology and put them in a blank room. No, that’s a misinterpretation of the message. I am saying all of us in the family from the bottom to the top need to get back to what is real fun.
And that’s part of my message and let them be kids. Let’s just immerse them in real joy, real adventure and real fun because, and yeah, sure. Video games playing them with your dad. Like I’m not trying my kids, you know, we, we don’t have it at our house, but my grandma, I mean, my mom has it. And so it’s like a fun thing they do there.
I’m not like you will never be near a screen, but, um, we are making space in our home and in our day for the good stuff, that’s my message.
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Talk to me about the beauty of boredom. Yeah. And by that, I mean, somehow it’s some point Jessica, and I don’t know how it happened, but particularly with some of my older children, I somehow felt like it was my job as a mom to keep my kids entertained.
I was trying to keep them off of screens to some degree they could watch a movie here and there, that kind of thing. We didn’t have a video game. You know, um, console in our house for quite a while when my earliest kids were growing up. But somehow I turned into the Barbie patrol. I turned into the matchbox patrol and I playing with my kids.
Don’t get me wrong, but. I began to feel this pressure, that it was my job to keep them engaged and having fun all the time. And I would feel sometimes that I was failing. My kids said that they were bored or they didn’t have anything to do now God fixed it because I went on to have a whole bunch more kids. And I was like, if you’re bored, that is on you.
I don’t have time to mess with it, but can boredom be a gift? I mean, do we sometimes, are we sometimes too quick to shove it to the side? And how do we help resolve that mom guilt in ourselves if our kids say they’re bored?
Jessica Smartt: [00:16:56] Well, I mean, it’s not a blanket statement. Like there probably are people listening and including the one talking who you need to spend time with their kids.
Like there are times I have one girl, so she’ll ask me, you know, can we please play friend is her game. And it’s like, I’d rather pull my hair out one by one. But I, you know, sometimes it’s like, this is what she needs. And it’s 15 minutes of my life, like get on the floor and play the game, you know? So I’m not gonna say like don’t ever, you know, um, but your question about being bored, giving good things. Absolutely. And I think I talk about in the book, how there’s like certain atmospheric conditions that you need to provide for a kid. To really enjoy boredom because you do need adventure. You know, you can’t just like you wouldn’t have a dog and lock it in a crate and be like, there have a good time, you know?
And so obviously if you have a kid way more true, but if a kid has had experiences, they have a full life. Played outside a little bit, you know, or maybe even not, you know, but they, their needs are taken care of. Okay. A lot of magic happens when you just feel a little bit of angst for a second. When you’re with a friend and you’re bored and you don’t have a screen that’s I think when true friendship starts to develop too, and that’s something that’s missing, you know, it’s sad when you see a group of kids outside on their skateboards or whatever, and they’re all on their phones.
I’m like put them down, talk to each other.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:18:20] Right, right. Yeah. And I think that that idea of. Open-ended play is really critical because we are in a very scripted world, right? I mean, we have stories coming all the time and even if it is the place with Instagram or whatever, an Instagram story, that seems to be very off the cuff, there’s still something being produced there.
And so for our kids to be able to just have this idea of seeing where a story will take them without someone dictating that that is so good for the brain. It’s so good for creativity. Such a powerful, yes. Powerful thing to consider the kinds of toys we’re allowing into our kids’ lives and what they generate.
Jessica Smartt: [00:18:56] Yeah, and reading is, does the same, which again, if you give them a choice of here, you can, you know, watch these YouTube channels or read a book who in their right mind is going to like choose. So you have to step in as the mom and say, they’re wanting us to. To make those choices. They really do very deep down.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:19:15] Right? Well, I think sometimes that is the question that really is being asked when a kid says I’m bored. Sometimes it’s not really just that they’re bored. They really do want some guidance on what are some things I could do. And I think that I’ve had to check. Myself, Jessica, because when I have one of my younger Wednesdays, I’m bored and I’m like, Oh, I’ll keep you from being bored.
Here’s a mop. You know, here’s, here’s a Brown, but I think sometimes they are legitimately asking what are some things I can be doing that would be of interest rather than the things that I’ve been doing now that I’m bored with. So I think it’s, I think that’s great advice, Jessica, to really stay open to what they’re asking.
Now, let me ask you this. You know, a whole bunch of parents. You’ve, you’ve been homeschooling, I’ve been homeschooling for many, many years, but a whole bunch of parents got the cold, deep dive bath into the remote learning experience as we have been dealing with COVID this past spring? And so. What do we need to be thinking about when it comes to the way we look at learning in combination with technology?
Because now we have kids who, you know, whether they’re home or in a traditional school, technology plays more, more of a role in their learning and can be very, very powerful. I mean, the access so much great information and history and technology does leverage a lot of ways that we do learn. It can be auditory. It can be, you know, visual, it can be tactile, which is a great thing. But how do we begin to navigate those waters where our kids may be spending a whole lot more time on technology for the purpose of learning. How do we make sure we stay balanced?
Jessica Smartt: [00:20:47] Well, you’re asking my opinion so I’ll give a very direct answer that may not be, I don’t know, an easy one, I guess, but I’ve spoken to a lot of parents who are concerned about this coming fall with some of the changes, whether it’s some at home, you know, and heavy virtual, or even in schools and the people I’ve talked to who have done the deep dive, as you talked about with homeschooling and it was a lot of computer technology based. I think it’s been a very difficult thing. Um, and I would say, I don’t think that’s an ideal learning setting for teacher, kid, parent, anyone. And so if you’re a parent right now, who’s looking at anticipating that again.
I would honestly say, and again, like, this is so easy to say a blanket statement, but if at all possible I would just try to do your own thing, honestly, because I think it’s hard to be on the screen. Like you said, it’s a very difficult way to do learning. Now we certainly supplement and I think, you know, absolutely screens are great for being involved in learning, but to have all your learning happen that way, I think is just really difficult and not ideal because kids, as you said, needs so many other different ways, I think that most parents could kind of piece meal a day that may be even more rewarding.
And even if it wasn’t quite, as, you know, they didn’t do all the comprehensive projects that you would have otherwise. And it was just a little bit more simple with just. We’re going to read some really good books. We’re going to get back to the basics of math. We’re gonna, you know, play outside. Like I honestly think for six months, there’ll be okay.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:22:26] Right. It’s going to be fine. It’s going to be fine. You know, there has been a really interesting thing that I’ve been seeing parents talking about as we came through all of the spring and the different lockdowns and that kind of a thing. And that was the increased awareness of actually how much sleep kids really do need.
Jessica Smartt: [00:22:44] Yeah.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:22:44] When our home we, we allowed because several of my kids danced and a couple of them have gone on to dance professionally. A lot of their instruction was from mid-afternoon until late into the evening. And so for many years we allowed those kids who were out late doing all of their training.
We allow them to sleep in until they have recovered because they were these, you know, Who were athletes and we knew they needed that, but they required a ton of sleep, Jessica. I mean, it was a lot. And I think parents are becoming aware all the sudden when we begin to reduce some of that crazy busy schedule and we allow, we allow ourselves to see the necessity that sleep is boy, our modern schedules don’t allow for much of that. Do they? And, and how do we, you know, to, to your title, let them be kids. How do we make sure they are getting the kind of rest that they truly need?
Jessica Smartt: [00:23:35] Yeah. I don’t know it that it’s easy if you’re in a conventional schedule, is it, um, because sports are late or activities and a lot of schools do start earlier.
So I don’t know that I have an answer for you. I that’s one thing I’m very grateful about. Cause I have some kids that are absolutely different human beings with the wrong amount of sleep. And I have, I think some kids maybe have. Also, I mean, it’s been hard to be home. I know that there’s been a lot of struggle.
You know, it was not easy for them, the kids who were in a school setting and then suddenly there’s this world, you know, pandemic and they’re at home and all the change , I think it’s been hard, but I do think you’re right. The sleep part. Probably improve some behaviors.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:24:18] Right? Right. Absolutely. And I do think that I am seeing some school districts beginning to take a really hard look at that and realizing, wow.
You know, we’ve kept kids in classrooms for a number of hours and yet the amount of homework on the flip side and the extracurricular activities, that’s really beginning to impact just how well they’re resting. And when you are sleep deprived, none of us, none of us tend to fare too well when we’re sleep deprived.
Now Jessica, within its lane of moms and the way we all kind of look at each other and sometimes the way we judge each other, there’s been a lot of controversy around what is called free range parenting, which is allowing kids to have a bit more freedom to roam the neighborhood, to go to the grocery store that’s a quarter mile away. How do you weigh in on this? I mean, what are your, what are you seeing within your community and what do you think about all that. Mmm.
Jessica Smartt: [00:25:08] I heard a good friend say that she allows her kids. This is Monica Swanson, and I love her book. Um, Boy Mom, she said they give their kids tremendous amount of physical freedom, but they protect their hearts very, very carefully.
And that resonated with me. Um, I do think, you know, you have to balance the physical freedom and to be honest with you, um, Yeah. You know, I wrote this book, let them be kids. And I have some brother-in-laws that are like real low key. And so if I’ll say, Hey, all those kids are, um, we have, my parents own this huge plot of land and there’s a Creek and snakes and, you know, and I’ll be like, we need to go check on the kids and they’ll just say, Oh, Jessica, remember let them be kids.
But I think one thing I address in the very beginning of the book is. To say, let them be kids isn’t passive. Like it’s hard work to let them, Oh, I like that. Sometimes it means you’re the protector and you step in and create an environment where they can be safe and it’s actually more work sometimes it’s not, sometimes it is like, go play in the backyard guys. I don’t want to see again, but, um, you know, sometimes it’s it’s work to be the adult, but. It’s very rewarding when you can give them that gift and see them grow. So I don’t have an answer for you. You know, I run into the gas station cause I do tend to be more protective, you know, if they’re in a safe place and they can explore nature and they can create and have their little kingdoms and worlds and create rules and all that, like. Yeah, I let him.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:26:45] I totally get that. And I think that I, you know, I’ve found within my own parenting that sometimes it’s ended on the kid, you know, we’ve, we’ve tried to avoid to some degree. We have some thresholds for things that we think are important in terms of marking the day when our child enters a, a new territory or a new level of freedom or independence, but we’ve had to kind of look at it case by case too.
You know, we have some kids who seem to be a little more aware of their surroundings and a little more on their toes. And then we have a couple who just sort of ambling through life. And so to, to be aware of where they’re at and what their needs are and the personality styles that they bring to the table.
So I do think that’s a, you know, I think that’s a balanced way of looking at how we allow them to begin to experience independence. And to your point that we can let them have some physical freedom within an environment in which we have a little bit more say over what’s going on. I think that’s, I think that’s a great way of looking at it.
Jessica Smartt: [00:27:43] I think when you let them have some freedom, I talk in the book about the importance of just like appearing every once in a while to like, Hey, I’m here. And like, is everybody being kind? And, you know, are you like scraping the car keys on the van, like, is everybody behaving? You know? Right. That’s really powerful for them to know, like, They trust us, but they’re here watching.
Julie Lyles Carr: [00:28:08] Right? Right. I think that’s a really great technique and certainly something that can be of great, great help. Well, Jessica, you have just been a wealth of information and wisdom. Thanks so much for all the encouragement about how we can help our kids be kids while their kids in those kid years. I think there’s just so much good here.
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