Check out part two of our special series on marriage, including insights on conflicts, individual needs in marriage, and intimacy. Clinical psychologist Dr. Juli Slattery joins Julie Lyles Carr for a two-part episode that will challenge how you think about marriage and will equip you with new tools to strengthen your relationship.
Listen to “Part 2 of Our Special Marriage Series with Dr. Juli Slattery” on Spreaker.
Interview Links:
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- Authentic Intimacy
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Transcription:
Julie Lyles Carr: A quick production note. We do deal with some adult topics when it comes to the topic of marriage. And so you might just want to put on those earbuds if you’ve got little listening ears in the car, this is your opportunity to do that. As we head into this episode with Dr. Juli Slattery.
You’re listening to the AllMomDoes podcast where you’ll find encouragement, information and inspiration for the life you’re living, the kids you’re raising, the romance you’re loving, and the faith you’re growing. I’m your host, Julie Lyles Carr. Let’s jump into this week’s episode.
Today is part two of our special two-part series with Dr. Juli Slattery. If you didn’t have a chance to listen to last week’s episode, you’re going to want to go back and check that out. So much great information, and then come right back here, meet me for part two, as we continue our conversation about marriage, about forgiveness, about sex, about dynamics, about power dynamics and marriage. It’s something you’re definitely going to want to hear just cram packed with all kinds of great information. So, stay tuned for part two of my conversation with Dr. Juli Slattery
So we are identifying that something that we thought for a long time was just a truism of the differences in the sexes and a husband and a wife we’re seeing now that maybe women are being more honest about their needs. Maybe they’re feeling more freedom for that, but I do think it’s creating a real interesting situation for a lot of marriages, because since we haven’t been really active in talking about why there’s such a difference at times in sex drive, that doesn’t correlate or line up, if you will, with our expectations of, oh, the guy always wants it, never the woman. How can women have those conversations with their husbands in a way that still honors this idea of walking in respect and encouragement, walking in as a helper and partnering with him in his sexual journey, but also saying, Hey, but this is really something I’m needing, and this is a need that I am supposed to only have met within the construct of marriage because of my faith walk and my understanding of marriage.
How can women navigate that?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, I think some of it is dispelling the myths that in every marriage, the man’s the one that has higher desire. And because you got to normalize your situation. The truth is that in every marriage, there are barriers to overcome sexually. And in most marriages they’re significant desire differences that are a barrier.
And whether it’s the man who has the higher desire, the woman has the higher desire, sometimes in a marriage, it changes based on age and stress and hormones. But starting at ground zero by saying, hey, let’s get rid of all of our preconceived ideas of what this was supposed to be and just accept what it is.
And the goal is how do we understand and minister to each other’s needs sexually? You know, I think it’s really important that we understand both people need to be ministered to sexually. And when I say ministered to, I think that’s important because the low drive person also has needs, potential wounds…
sex means something to him or her. It’s not just that I don’t want sex, therefore sex doesn’t mean anything. When we look at the stats of how many men and women have sexual trauma in their past, that impacts a lot of marriages. When you talk about how many people feel shame about sexual desire, and that’s the reason they have no desire in marriage. That affects a lot of marriages.
And so when you revolve the marriage just around the sexual need of the person who wants sex, you’re missing a whole landscape of how do we grow and heal and mature together in our sexual relationship. At what point do we need to get help? How can we read books to understand the anatomy of the husband and wife to communicate about sensitive topics?
And so it’s really this invitation to journey together. And one of the most sacred and tender parts of our humanity.
Julie Lyles Carr: One of the things that I’m seeing come up again and again, that is really interesting to me, and I’m even seeing it unpacked a lot in some of the social media channels, people who are beginning to speak out more. You know, I think that power that women thought they had
in this idea of meeting a man’s need for sex was a very interesting kind of twist to it because it was something of, if you’re not the seductress or the other corollary bean, you’re also responsible if someone has an inappropriate sexual response to you, because were you wearing the sleeveless top? You know, were you, were you moving in a way that was going to be somehow putting them at risk for lust?
I just think this is one of those areas, Juli, that we’ve got a lot of unpacking to do as a faith culture, because we have nuanced this thing so heavily with so many layers about who’s responsible for what. What happened to so and so? And even then knowing the numbers of sexual abuse for both men and women is really telling in terms of how this whole thing has really gotten messy and swampy.
I’m seeing a lot of conversation lately about trying to appropriately deconstruct purity culture and what purity culture has done to women. What are you seeing in that field and how does that impact even how we go about appropriately meeting this third need that we see in our husband in a way that makes the power pure,
but not delving into this purity culture, that seems to have a whole lot of albatrosses that get hung about the neck on that.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Right? Well, this is an area that I spend a lot of time in actually teaching and writing. I just finished a manuscript applies all this to marriage. So if you give me talking on this, I can go for a while.
Give you maybe a 30,000 foot view. Yeah. I think what’s really important is to understand that we all have a sexual narrative that we work with. And it’s what defines why sex is important. What is wholeness look like? And the purity narrative, or like a traditional church narrative is rules-based.
And it in many cases is shame-based of, if you keep the rules, you know, God’s going to reward you, which, you know, has set a lot of people up for disappointment. You know, you’re going to have this great sex life, but if you don’t keep the rules in any way, there’s a sense of shame that you can never shake.
And we have another narrative, which is really the cultural narrative. Sex is all about your fulfillment and identity. And we see a lot of that coming through the influence of pornography, just that I should get as much pleasure as I can out of sex and I deserve to get my needs met. But I think the problem Julie, is that we have not presented a third narrative.
So people feel like if they reject purity culture, the only option is to go with what the world is teaching, which is I want to experiment. I want to have the most fun I can. If my marriage isn’t satisfying sexually, then something’s really wrong and I should get out of the marriage. And so what I’m really passionate about teaching is more of a biblical narrative of what is the purpose of sex.
And what’s a healthy way of viewing sex within marriage. And it really has more to do with understanding that sex is supposed to be one piece, a reflection of the way God loves us of Christ’s covenant love for his church. And we see this all throughout the scripture, but breaking that down of, you know, how does Christ love his bride?
You know, he loves his bride faithfully and he’s true to his covenant. He loves his bride in a way that it’s a journey of intimate knowing. Of knowing God to the fullest and him knowing us. It’s a journey of self-giving love where both are sacrificing for the other and it’s a mutual giving of what I want to please you.
And then finally, it’s, it’s a covenant of pleasure and our relationship with God we’re supposed to gather every week to celebrate. To worship him. And in a similar way, a husband and wife celebrate their covenant through sex. And so really giving a framework for Christian couples of what wholeness looks like and how all the struggles that they experience are part of that journey towards wholeness.
It doesn’t mean everything’s broken and will never be better. God is always doing something. When we say, Lord, this is painful. What, what do you want to teach me about yourself? What do you want to teach me about me? What do you want to teach me about love? And so, we have a lot of work to do, not just dismantling purity culture, but rebuilding something that’s healthier and actually more rooted in the way God created sex to start.
Julie Lyles Carr: I love that distinction of, it’s not just about dismantling that which has proven to be very dysfunctional and harmful. It’s also about then rebuilding something that is healthy, and the fullest expression of what God has wanted. I love that you make that distinction because I do really understand a lot of the conversations that are being had.
I think they’re important conversations, but I am, I am longing and hoping to see that place where it then becomes a rebuilding of something that’s better, instead of just a continuous deconstruction of something that has been hurtful. Talk to me, talk to my listeners about the woman who finds herself in a relationship that maybe it started out
they were on the same page. They met at Bible college and marriage meant the same thing to them. And the sexual covenant meant the same thing to them. And here they are a few years down the road, and she now discovers that her partner is no longer in the same place when it comes to a faith walk, or for the woman who married thinking that she was going to talk this guy into relationship with Christ and that has not happened.
And so she could be listening to us talking about these three needs that she wants to come alongside as a godly wife and meet, but she knows that some of his definitions, some of her husband’s definitions, they’re just not going to be informed on the same, the same dictionary list that we’ve just provided.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. Boy, I know women in that situation is so painful and there’s so much loss there of what we thought our life would be together and what it is now. And I know that we have to nuance our teaching to unique situations, but we do have some passages in the Bible that give clear guidance to a woman in that situation.
And essentially it says is if your husband is willing to be married to you, then stay married to him. And he still has the same three needs and so just like you were talking about John and Julie Gottman’s research, and they’re not necessarily coming from a faith perspective, but their stuff works. You know, there’s wisdom in the world that works for non-Christian marriages and Christian marriages.
There are patterns that just create healthy relationships and patterns that create dysfunctional relationships. And so, I know many people that are married to somebody who doesn’t share their faith walk, but they’ve found common ground on building intimacy, where they can build it, and respecting where they’re different. And the Bible does say, but if your husband doesn’t want to be married anymore, if he’s not willing to respect where you are with the Lord, then let him go.
And so I’m grateful that God knew that this kind of situation was going to happen and he made provision for that. But I know it can be a long journey.
Julie Lyles Carr: Absolutely. I’m going to have some listeners also who are going to say, okay, this need that my husband has for respect, this need that he has for help, this need that has to be, to be partnered with in his sexual journey during his lifetime,
I thought I had it figured out and then he had a midlife crisis. Or I hit premenopausal or, or empty nest, the last kid left. And all of a sudden it felt like things really, really shifted. Now that same thing can happen with the birth of a first baby. You know, you can be heading down a line and you can have somebody kind of enter a midlife crisis right then when the first baby comes along. How do we navigate some of the places where, what may be has worked in the past and we thought we had a good rhythm worked out, and we thought that we were the wife that our spouse needed. All of a sudden that spouse is undergoing some radical changes that we may not really find recognizable.
And we’re trying to keep showing up in the ways that we have, but it doesn’t seem to be working. How do we learn how to modify and stay encouraging even in the face of those kinds of changes in life.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, you’ve probably been through a few of those yourself.
Julie Lyles Carr: All kinds of life events going on over here.
Dr. Juli Slattery: It could be something like cancer or a job loss where you’re just clicking around find, and you’ve had a good rhythm, as you mentioned. And it was. And now it’s like somebody took the puzzle, you’re building just threw all the pieces up and you feel like you’re starting from scratch.
Julie Lyles Carr: Right. And I would say COVID has done that to a lot of people that I know, you know, even though you know, we expected it to be a few weeks, but COVID has been that kind of speed bump in the relational lane.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. You know, and certainly in our 27 years of marriage, we’ve had some ups and downs and different circumstances thrown at us. But I can say that when I go back to these three areas of power and I asked the Lord, you know, what does it look like to use this area of respect in my husband today, given what we’re going through. What does it look like to be his teammate and his companion on the journey and to help him?
And what does it mean to be on the journey sexually with him? Those are, those are guiding posts for me. And the answer is different today than it was 15 or 20 years ago of how I play that out, because our situations have changed and my husband has changed and I’ve changed. But but that’s why these principles are helpful because they really can apply in any situation, even though the application of them is going to look different.
Julie Lyles Carr: Talk to me about what you identify as a wife’s three primary needs. The three buckets that she has that correlate to where her husband can also express a lot of power in her life and meeting those needs.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, here’s the fun part. I think we only have two big needs. Okay. Guys, always say we’re so needy, but I think we have fewer needs. I really think we have two needs in, again, we can be complicated in how we want these met, but the first need is we have a need within an intimate relationship to feel valued or cherished. So, while a husband is waking up every day saying, do you believe in me, you know, a wife is waking up every day saying, do you notice me? Do you still love me? Am I still your number one? And there are a lot of ways that a wife can feel like the answer is no, if he’s off working 80 hours a week. If he’s distracted all the time. If he doesn’t listen to you. He forgets your anniversary. You know, the classic ways that women feel like I’m not as number one anymore.
He doesn’t even see me. It’s like background noise when I talk. So that’s the first one. And then the second one, I know this is going to bristle some women, but I think it’s really true. Women have a need to feel within intimate relationship, a sense of protection. Women are more, are very vulnerable in intimate relationships.
They’re vulnerable to rejection. They’re vulnerable to abuse. They’re vulnerable to not being cared for, especially if you’re, if you’re in the childbearing stage. You can go out and make the money and do all that but there’s an element to which you don’t want to have to. You want to be able to rest in the strength and provision that your husband brings to the marriage.
And and so when I talked to wives who are really hurting in marriage, it’s usually one of these two needs at some level that’s not being met. And this is why women will say, why won’t my husband ever step up? You know, why won’t he take some initiative? Why won’t he help with the kids? And she’s saying I don’t feel seen and I don’t feel cared for.
And so I think that’s where a husband really has power to work on his side of the equation in terms of building intimacy.
Julie Lyles Carr: How can a wife bring these things up without veering into a lane that we would call nagging. That place or complaining. And it’s interesting because we’ve been talking about Gottman’s research, bringing your complaint is actually considered a positive thing under a Gottman strategy, which even that word, I think for a lot of us in faith communities were like, oh, we’re not supposed to complain, but I really do appreciate the auspices under which they talk about bringing something, a need that you feel is not being met, doing it in a way that is
being critical, but at the same time being willing to say it. And I think sometimes to me, Juli, a lot of our Christian circles, I almost feel like we put this burden on people that you’re not supposed to verbalize what you need. And if you do verbalize what you need, then your nagging. So how can we do this in a healthy way?
Because as we’re seeking to meet our partners’ needs, It’s okay to have our own needs as well and to own that.
Dr. Juli Slattery: So, here’s the tricky part. Julie, when a wife typically goes to her husband and says, you’re not loving me well, or you hurt my feelings by what you just did, he is likely to hear you think I’m a bad husband. I’m not measuring up. So what does that tap into it taps into, again, his inadequacy or sense of competence. And so some guys will feel like, no matter what I do, I can not make my wife happy. It feels, I feel like she’s always complaining. She’s always asking me to do something I don’t know how to do.
And so and so it’s really being sensitive to the fact that you want to bring this up to him, but not in a way that’s going to sound like I’m seeing your horrible husband. And so part of the way you do it is honestly asking for help. And I know sometimes we don’t like to do that, but remember husbands like to be the hero. They like to step in and be the guy that can, can help and save the day. And so there’s a difference between me saying, Mike, you never helped me with the dishes. And why do you always do this? And why didn’t you listen to me when I was talking about that? That sounds critical. And me saying, Hey, I’m, I’m struggling. You know, I’m barely making it every day and I’m overloaded with work and I need some help.
I need you to help me. And so that’s an invitation for him to step in. And and I think it’s learning that we can see the same thing in a way that sounds critical and demanding, or we can say it in a way that actually is an invitation for his strength is step in. And I know as a young wife, I didn’t like that because I didn’t want to have to need him, you know?
And I think sometimes as women, we sabotage ourselves because we don’t want to ask for help. And then we get mad when he doesn’t help. But I think being very clear in this is, you know, even that help, even the help companionship need he has. How does he know how to be a good husband if I don’t teach him?
And so having that kind of approach of this is how I feel loved is very different than being critical about the ways that you’re not loving me well.
Julie Lyles Carr: And I will certainly say, I think for a lot of us who were raised in the era in which we were raised it really to, to voice a need in that way to ask for help from a man.
You know, I primarily have worked in male dominated environments in television and radio in ministry, and I was expected in those environments, if I was going to, if I was going to get to play, I had to figure it out on my own. It was not, it wasn’t a great thing for me to walk in and go, I need some help.
And you bring that back into the home. And it can be a very confusing thing for women today because we are expected to be very independent. We are expected to be troubleshooters, and to not bother anybody, and to be quote unquote, boss girls. So this is a really interesting nuance that I think it takes some real crafts woman’s ship to bring it back into the marriage in a way that’s appropriate to where it’s, you’re not devaluing yourself.
I, I love your point that there are a couple of, there are many different ways we can ask for the same thing or state the same thing, it’s simply nuanced. And this is a way that really speaks a language that can be a lot more powerful. I, myself have been very guilty many times of bringing my complaint, but it being something that it’s understandable. And my husband’s name is also Mike. I always forget that you also have a Mike. Two Julie’s and two Mike’s here. but I get it. I mean, that sense of, I think I’m asking for help, but the way that I’m positioning it, it’s not coming off like a request for help. And I really do want his help, but I’m not saying in a way
is easily identifiable as a need for help. And I’m really curious to ask, and I, I don’t know yet what your answer’s going to be, but you have come back on a position on submission that’s different. So I’m really curious to hear where you’ve landed.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, my goodness. Let me just say, even as we have this conversation, this book is so counter-cultural and I realized that it goes against so many of the narratives of where we’re moving as women and men.
And there was a part of me that that was like, ah, I’m releasing this book at a time where these ideas are so unpopular. And and I understand that. And I think submission is probably, you know, like a word that can get you canceled today very quickly. It’s not a very popular concept, but I think
one of the reasons it’s been so unpopular is because it has been so misunderstood and misapplied. Submission in marriage has been communicated for so many generations as a woman being weak. As a woman laying down her power so that her man can be the dominant ruler of the family. And when I look at scripture and I also look at the relational dynamics between men and women in intimate relationships, I really see that submission is the call to use your power in a way that builds intimacy, and not to react to fear.
So anytime I don’t submit well, it’s because I’m afraid. And I think there’s two primary ways that we don’t submit. One of them is we become weak. A weak woman is not a woman who honors God in her marriage. God created you to be a woman of great power and to use that power well. In Proverbs 14:1 says a wise woman builds her house, but with their own hands, the foolish one tears, hers down.
So that’s power. And I think tragedy that so many women think that biblical teaching on marriage means that she has to be weak. The second problem we have where we, we don’t do submission well is when we just take over with our power, we become manipulative. We become critical. We become dominant, and intimacy
doesn’t thrive in that kind of marriage either. And so submission is really understanding that God has given me the power to blow this marriage, to tear down my husband, or he’s given me power as far as it depends on me to really create a climate of intimacy. And so how do I do that well? How do I bring all that
I am, my intellect, my strength, my personality to the marriage relationship so that I’m promoting intimate within the relationship.
Julie Lyles Carr: I think that’s a really great way to look at it. And you know, of course, what comes to mind is the verse to me, where it says husbands wives submit to each other. You know, I think sometimes we have in many ways made this only something that we see within the context of, of the wife within a marital relationship.
And yet we ignore that part of the council of scripture kind of tuck it away. So when you bring in this idea of it’s how we create an environment of intimacy, one to the other, that first of all, to me just has greater resonance within context of scripture and context of those cultures, which is something we have to bring in to the discussion, but it also then allows each partner to still have their dignity, to still have their power, to still have their places of strength
without it feeling like something that becomes kind of odd. So I appreciate the fact that you’ve had the courage to dive in, because I do think we’ve either gone to one definition or another definition over here, and it’s become a really loaded term to try to talk about in a lot of our faith circles. Which has led to a great deal of confusion.
I did want to ask you about conflict in marriage, because now we’ve talked about wanting to be respectful, wanting to be a helper, wanting to be partners in the sexual journey. And then for women to know that we’re in a place that feels protected and safe to know that we are seen and we are valued, we are cherished.
And then you come down to a good old fight. So what happens in conflict, and should we be trying to avoid conflict altogether? I know people who think that there should never be conflict in marriage. And then I know people who think that if you don’t have a good fight, once a week, you’re going to miss out on some of the best, you know, caffeine for your passion.
So, so how do you navigate all of that? Both as a spouse and as a therapist?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, I know we are really familiar with, as you’ve mentioned, Dr. Gottman’s research and he’s done such a good job of helping us understand conflict. And a lot of even how I wrote about it in this book is as gleaned from his wisdom and his research, but here’s the thing, you can never get rid of conflict.
And I think part of what we need to do is normalize conflict. Conflict simply means you and I see things differently. And one of the things Dr. Gottman found is that about two thirds of our conflict are unresolvable. And, which to me first, when I heard that, I was like, oh my goodness. Really? And then the more I thought about it, I’m like, yeah, like my husband and I had this same conflict all the time, because there’s a fundamental difference between how we approach money or how we approach work or how cold the bedroom should be.
Like those things aren’t changing. You know, who’s going to be early and who’s going to be late. We’ve been having the same conflict since we got married and they’re not resolvable. And, but I think that the distinction is there’s a difference between a conflict and a fight. And so a conflict is all right, we have a different,
maybe even we have an offense that we have to deal with between the two of us, but the goal is how do we understand each other through this? How do we reconnect? Because right now this is creating distance. The goal of a fight is to win and to stay safe. And so fights happen when the conflict leads to a trigger.
When all of a sudden I say something that triggers my husband, or he does something that triggers me, and now I’m reacting out of a part of my brain that is fight or flight. It’s how do I get in control? How do I say something to wound him? How do I prove my point? And I’m not working on intimacy anymore.
And so there’s a chapter in the book all about this cause I think it’s so important that we’re not afraid of conflict, that we’re prepared for it, and we learn how to address conflict in a way that is me and you against the problem. And not me against you.
Julie Lyles Carr: I love that distinction. And I think it’s an important one that phrase of let’s normalize conflict, I think is fantastic because I do think a lot of times we use those two terms as synonyms of each other. You know, conflict means fight, but that distinction is really beautiful.
I love that you bring that up. Dr. Juli Slattery. She has a great podcast you should be listening to called Java with Julie and she spells her Juli, J U L I and the new book is finding the hero in your husband, embracing your power in marriage. Dr. Julie, where can listeners find out more from you? I know you’ve got tons of great resources, all that stuff. So tell them where to go.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, the best spot is authenticintimacy.com. You can pretty much find everything we’re doing from that website.
Julie Lyles Carr: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for your time and allowing us to do a two part episode on this on marriage, conflict, sex, all the things I really appreciate your time. And of course I can’t wait to have you on again. I always learn something.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, thanks. It’s been a joy, Julie.
Julie Lyles Carr: Check out the show notes for all the links, info and other goodness from this week’s episode, with a big thank you to our content coordinator, Rebecca. I’ve got a request, please go like and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. It really does make a difference in helping other people find the show. And I’ll see you next week here at the AllMomDoes podcast.
